Smashing Magazine Killed The Community (Or Maybe It Was Me)

It used to be so much better than this. Every article that you came across wasn’t a tutorial or list. Hell, the majority of them weren’t tutorials or lists. There were articles that actually talked about design. There were articles that made you think how you could become a better designer and encouraged intellectual discussion on design. Those articles still exist here and there, but they are drowned out by the copycats.

The web design community is split into two sides: 1. loves to view every single list article there is 2. hates that list articles were ever invented. I fall into both camps because to me some list articles do serve a purpose, but when we start to see Design Trends of Spa Websites I think we might be going a bit too far.

Sorry Build Internet

I am not picking on Sam and Zach over at Build Internet because they run a great site with some really helpful articles. They just happened to post an article that helps to get my point across.

For the dreamers out there looking to start a web service here are two articles from them that help get you started with Amazon’s services:

Back in 2003, I started to write about design on a blog called Whitespace, which is now Wisdump and owned by Splashpress, and on it I enjoyed talking about design because I have a passion for it. Although I will never claim to be a designer, I wanted to share my thoughts with the world and I wanted to talk about the ideas that other people had as well. I liked that anyone could have an opinion on design and that it was a field where the experts are people whose work you could actually see, unlike the work of all of you social media experts out there.

During my time with Whitespace, the online design community was young and vibrant. We were all still exploring new ways to engage our audience through design so everyone was experimenting and it was exciting. I was enjoying myself so much that I wanted to contribute in another way so I started the CSSVault. It was the first site on the web that showcased sites with beautiful designs using CSS. There were a couple of great gallery sites before the CSSVault, but they included sites with tables and Flash while my goal was to show the world that CSS could be beautiful. Dave Shea probably did a better job doing this with his wonderful creation, css Zen Garden, but I like to think we both did a lot of good for the design and development community back then.

The problem with creating the CSSVault though was that it was a simple site that anyone could duplicate and many others did. Many of them were people I was close to within the community so I was always taken aback that they would lift something I had started without innovating. You see, the problem is not when you take something and copy it, the problem is when you don’t push the idea further. Now you have over 200+ CSS gallery sites and they are all the same. I can’t lie, when I discovered this it made me feel as though I had opened a box of HIV and threw it on the web. It has gotten to the point where you don’t even want to visit any of them because the idea of another gallery does nothing but annoy you. Who knows how many people I have indirectly pissed off because they came across another shitty CSS gallery that was somehow influenced by me.

(With that being said, the Drawar Gallery is great.)

Smashing Magazine Info

What are the most popular posts on Smashing Magazine this year? They graciously share that information on their About Us page.

Their “Greatest Story Ever” (I kid you not, that is what it says): 53 CSS Techniques You Couldn’t Live Without.

Just when I thought the age of the copycats had disappeared Smashing Magazine comes into the picture. I enjoy some of the stuff that Smashing Magazine puts out so what you are about to read might seem a little weird. If you were following them at the beginning back in 2006 then you know that they got their start by posting lists. And when I say lists, I mean a ton of lists. It was a non-stop, blogging diarrhea of lists. These lists made them popular because it got them on Digg and del.icio.us, which is a great thing for any site looking to build an audience. However, when others started to notice this they knew they could do the same thing and start to receive a ton of traffic as well. It was the CSSVault all over again, but this was far worse because they were taking over the discussions that were so important to the community before.

What has followed over the past two years is a non-stop influx of posts that talk about nothing more than the next great trend. You know what kind of harm that does to a community when all the pieces of intellectual discussion are removed from it? It creates a community of copycats. There were enough copycats before this whole thing started, but now it has gotten out of control. A bigger issue is that the people who are pumping out the great designs don’t bother to get involved in the community anymore because there is no point. What are they supposed to say when everyone isn’t even going to bother reading them if there aren’t 50 images of websites attached to their words?

Have you read the comments that belong to a Smashing Magazine post? Have you ever left there feeling that you learned something? If you haven’t read the comments they usually boil down to two types:

  1. Great finds! Keep up the great work!
  2. This is basic stuff, everyone knows this. Article was a waste of my time.

I know we can’t demand that every website in the world has the types of discussions that we wish for, but you would at least want the leading site in the community to enrich your life just a little bit I would think.

Lists are Big Business

Here are what some of the big boys are making monthly from BuySellAds alone before the 25% is taken off the top.

Not exactly chump change.

Smashing Magazine is one of the most popular blogs on the web and they are raking in the money so why shouldn’t everyone follow their model? The problem is it seems like everyone is following their model, even down to the million and one ads in a sidebar. The money these sites earn makes you almost understand why they want every article to be linkbait. However, why can’t you have those entries along with other great entries that either teach their readers about design or offer an opinion on it? An entry that gives back to the design community that is so graciously clicking on those Twitter links to view your content wouldn’t hurt you. Trust me, you don’t have to follow the Smashing Magazine model to be a success. Let them do them, while you start to learn how to do you.

Problem is, what if these people really don’t have an opinion on design though? What if they don’t even care about design, they just saw an opening to make some easy money and went for it? And please don’t tell me it is hard work coming up with these entries or how many hours of research you pour into them. If research is typing 500 cool websites into Google and collecting the urls then I was doing it all wrong back in college. If they really are in it just for the money then it is even more important for us to help the greater content standout.

Zeldman posted a great article on self-promotion and it was an enjoyable read because it was his voice and his uncensored opinion and it made you think. You know how the article would’ve went on these other sites? The title would probably be similar to 37 Ways To Creatively Promote Yourself Using Social Media And Termites and the author’s opinion would simply be that self-promotion is good. Have some balls every once in a while and go out on a limb. Critique a design that you like or don’t like. Rip into a site every once in a while and follow it up with praise for another.

Return to being different.

Not everyone is going to push out an individual design for every well-written entry like Jason Santa Maria, but we aren’t always looking for that. Personally I just want to see more people talking about the ideology of design instead of…well hell, anything else.

After all this ranting and raving is said and done, I will still visit many of these sites because they do provide some good to the community. It is just a shame that we are overloaded with what they write on a constant basis and rarely does it differ from one article to the next. The ones who do have an opinion deserve their chance to shine right next to the big guys. Nothing negative comes from great discussions so lets try our best to make it happen again. The web design community deserves better.


Help spread the word and after that...

...please follow Drawar on Twitter here or subscribe here.

 

78 Responses to Smashing Magazine Killed The Community (Or Maybe It Was Me)

mike

11.25.09
permalink
We missed you. Great article, very Scrivs and very well said. Off to live off of the web for a few hours but great to see this site!
 

Scrivs

11.25.09
permalink
No mike, I missed you. Glad you liked the article and I can only assume that it being "very Scrivs" is a compliment. Now I need to work on having unique nicknames since I'm pretty sure you just took Rundle's lol.

Hope you come back to enjoy the site more as it will continue to grow and develop over the coming weeks.
 

mike

11.25.09
permalink
Definitely, I missed this kind of site for sure.

And yeah, I was very surprised that I got that username! Now time to get away from the computer...
 

Scrivs

11.25.09
permalink
It seems everyone has an opinion behind closed doors, but in public nothing gets said. It weirds me out.

Smashing Magazine does what they do very well and I don't blame them that much for continuing to do it. The problem is that they have spawned so many copycats that I think most people feel that if you can't write a linkbait type article with loads of pictures and lists to get you traffic then it just isn't worth writing.

I can understand the need for traffic and money, I want that as well, but I also have the need to share ideas and engage in conversations with others. I don't see why these can't go hand to hand.
 

Brent (RedSpark Labs)

11.25.09
permalink
Scrive,

Missed seeing your posts lately. I love that you speak what you feel and don't apologize for your opinion. I may not always agree with it, but I respect it.
 

mike

11.25.09
permalink
I totally agree; that smashing-style is useful but there is a hole in our field for the type of content you and others used to publish. I look forward to you stirring the pot and having some of the convos that used to be widespread before linkmania and list-mania.
 

iisbum

11.25.09
permalink
I'm not sure who to blame :) The readers seem to like the pretty pictures and clicking on them.

Put some solid writing up there and see how much traffic that article gets!
 

Darice

11.25.09
permalink
Scrivs this article is a breath of fresh air. Like you I miss the opinionated weblog entries by individuals on design, code and all things web.

I barely visit galleries anymore, I relay heavily on Google to find individual webloggers who have written about how to achieve something design or code wise without having bazillion ads or photos. And where the comments add more value to the entry.

I'm looking forward to the growth of Drawar.
 

Scrivs

11.25.09
permalink
@Brent: Better to be respected than blindly followed right?

@iisbum: You are correct in that the community itself deserves a lot of the blame because we continue to retweet, digg, and pass around these articles so there is almost no reason for people to stop posting them. The opinion and thought pieces take more time to write and probably get passed around less so to many people there is no reason to write them, which is a shame.

@Darice: Finding the stuff you are really interested in reading can be a pain, but I almost enjoy the search for trying to find the hidden gem. When I go to certain sites I know what I am getting so I try to weed around them.

You will find a lot of good stuff in the Links and News section that you wouldn't find in other places so be sure to check it out.
 

Dominick

11.25.09
permalink
Hey, great article!

I've only recently frequent smashing magazine and other similar sites (mainly through other people's tweets) and find myself thinking "wow this is such common sense, it's a waste of 5 minutes scrolling through it that I'll never get back." It's true, I really don't see articles compelling enough to provoke me into the discussion.

Drawar looks promising. Can't wait to see what will become of it.
 

Scrivs

11.25.09
permalink
Thanks Dominick. It would be interesting to see an stats or a study of how many people go through and take the time to read those articles. Sure everyone seems to click through to them, but after that what happens? You see a lot of comments mostly because people wish to get their URLs out there.

I can't wait to see what Drawar becomes either. I have a plan for a foundation, but after that it is in the community's hands.
 

Scrivs

11.25.09
permalink
And although I know they can't (actually they can) do these types of articles all the time I really enjoyed The Death of the Blog Post?
 

Tyme

11.25.09
permalink
I am glad that you wrote about this. We've discussed this before and I've written about this trend previously. Unfortunately, many designers (especially new ones) don't want to rock the boat, or do anything that might cause negative criticism. Instead of innovation, the copycat sites pop up.

I am not against list entries but most times, they tend to degrade. For example this entry has a list of 69 sites. At first, the author says something about the site but it is not consistent. Some have blurb about the site, some have none. If the author couldn't think of anything to say (or take the time to write it) why are those sites included? To me this is not a good entry, it is a lazy entry.

One thing I do respect Smashing for is the way they give back to the community with their freebies. They help designers gain exposure and the community receives nice themes, icons, etc. for free use.

Interesting the design community doesn't copycat that.
 

Vitaly Friedman (Smashing Magazine)

11.25.09
permalink
Scrivs, thank you very much for your very interesting perspective. We do see your point and we are sure that the design community indeed deserves more original, unique content related to design. And, to be honest, we are working hard to move away from lists to more unique, interesting, thought-provoking article. However, the transition is slow and some authors have to be taught about the expectations and quality guidelines that their articles must meet. On the other side, it's very hard to find authors who have time and skills to share their knowledge or thoughts with the community. We also always support interesting articles via Twitter, Facebook and the links on Smashing Magazine.

In general, we are aiming for a good mix of various articles. Many readers are expecting lists and even prefer lists, so we need to meet their expectations. We also have many readers who want to have something to read and, of course, we try to offer some articles for them, too. But being as huge as we are, it's really difficult to make everybody happy, even although we are trying hard to offer unique, useful and relevant content.

What is important is that the new articles on SM are either useful from the practical point of view or are thought-provoking. Here are some examples:

The death of the boring blog post

Brand User Experience: The Interface of a Cheeseburger

Portfolio Design Sudy: Design Patterns and Current Practices

Brushing on the Photoshop's Brush Tool

Invoice like a pro

The ails of typographic anti-aliasing

The Smashing Network is one of the ideas that we've come up with in order to motivate designers and developers to put more original high quality content out there. The network is very young, but we will do our best to present only the best articles around in the network, so it's already being done.

Bottom line: Smashing Magazine is aiming for more original, creative, provoking posts that let our readers think about the design. That's our ultimate goal. And we will do our best to get there soon. However, we do need to take care of various parts of our readership, so we can't turn down the format that a big part of the readership likes.

Again, thank you for the brilliant post - it does raise some really important points. We have always worked for the design community and we will do our best to continue doing so in the future.
 

dotwebs

11.25.09
permalink
Awsome round up dude! Thanks ;)
 

Amber Weinberg

11.25.09
permalink
I agree. I hardly ever visit Smashing or the other big name blogs because the information seems so trivial and non-detailed. Yet they get tons of traffic and followers.

When I started my own development/design blog a few months ago I ran into the same dilemma. I wanted to deliver detailed pertinent articles everyday, but be able to gain traffic. It seems like the opposite is true on my own site, as lists and general info posts aren't very popular, so perhaps the trend is slowly changing? It seems difficult not to use lists since there really is no "new information" on the web and people are so sensitive these days, you have to watch your opinions.
 

Kyle Meyer

11.25.09
permalink
Excellent post Scrivs.

I've written about this a few times on my own blog, but the truth is very much as you put it. There is money involved.

Many of the sites that curate the cream of crop when it comes to original content have no ads. When you bring business in to the equation, the best intentions of contributing to the industry are forgotten.

But what can we do?

I think the right approach is to promote the need for designers to learn about design, and let the lists of useless information fall to the wayside in terms of importance.
 

Jeff Claeson

11.25.09
permalink
You've managed to put into word what I've seen and felt for a while now too. Great article and timely indeed.
 

Tranquera

11.25.09
permalink
SM just delivers what most "designers" seek... Blame the "designers" for it...
 

Wouter Vervloet

11.25.09
permalink
"This is basic stuff, everyone knows this. Article was a waste of my time."

Nah, seriously... I'm going to be very unoriginal right now and cite the great marketing guru Seth Godin: "Today, the one sure way to fail is to be boring. Your one chance for success is to be remarkable." (from: Purple Cow: Transform Your Business by Being Remarkable).

And that says it all in my opinion... do something different from all the other players in your area of expertise and get noticed — if you deliver quality of course.
 

mahalie

11.25.09
permalink
Wow...Srivs. Are we old? Cause I'm feeling all kinds of nostalgic. I think you are spot on, would add that Twitter has equal blame. Everything is fast bursts and TMI. Who reads anymore? I know I stopped blogging except to publicly post documentation a couple years ago because I realized all my IRL friends were on Facebook, all the geek and design audience was glued to Twitter and I've never mastered link baiting...

Still love A List Apart, way to keep a good thing real good!
 

Stuart Thursby

11.25.09
permalink
Wonderful article, and I entirely agree. When I first started really investing time and effort into scouring the web for what was going on in the world of design, I found those list sites great, as they allowed me to quickly come up to speed with most of the blogs out there, and I could weed out the good from the bad myself at that point. However, since then and as I've gone along, I've found that I now look for well-written articles on the "thoughts" of design: the design observers, andy rutledges and eric karjaluotos of the world, so to speak.

In early 2009, I started a blog which started off as all things general design (including lists), gravitated to about 6 months of a typography focus, before taking a break for a bit as I re-thought what I wanted to do with it. And what I want is contribute what little I can to the "quality" discourse going on out there. While I'm far from a brainiac and may be entirely off base with everything I write on my blog, I'm hoping to provoke at least a small amount of reaction and discussion in my small corner of the design universe.

And for those who are curious, the link is here =p

http://sthursby.com/thoughts/
 

Johnny

11.25.09
permalink
I totally agree with what you're saying. I remember when I started my first web design site, and because there was so much quality content out there you had to try and be competitive, so the quality was a lot higher. About a year ago I started another and realized that all the design community wanted was lists (at that time) and I eventually ditched the site for that reason.

My most reason website is following a much more "today" attitude and I've found myself writing a list or two more than I should, and I always feel bad about it, I mean, any idiot can google something and post a bunch of links with colorful images beside them. I still post articles that get my opinion and new information that people may not have noticed or heard about out there, and this is the type of blogging I'm most passionate about.

I suppose though that websites today are expected to update at least once per week, and lists can provide a good filler post while giving the blogs audience what it wants.
 

eddie

11.25.09
permalink
wow - thank you. you have said what's been running through my head for a while now. thanks again.
 

Josh

11.25.09
permalink
I see lists as an aid to "comparison shopping" on the web. They have their place. When a project rolls around and I'd like to do "X" I often start looking to see what others have done, because quite often an idea has been done many times before I thought of it.

Unfortunately, what is often missing from the list is an honest critique and suggestion for best practices. That requires refection and insight, rare commodities it would seem.

As designers, we are often juxtaposing original work with standard practice/execution. If one focuses entirely on being original, one risks obscurity and irrelevance—a dangerous thing in a medium where being connected holds such value. The same is true for the other end of the spectrum: doing the same thing again and again, without original contributions.

The conversation needs lists as much as it needs insight. It is when we can engage the two, accepted and original, in a meaningful way that the community can benefit.
 

Scrivs

11.25.09
permalink

One thing I do respect Smashing for is the way they give back to the community with their freebies. They help designers gain exposure and the community receives nice themes, icons, etc. for free use.


Indeed and I would hate for that to get lost in all of this, they have provided a springboard for more designers than most people so they should definitely be commended of this. Once you reach a certain size and popularity you can almost expect this to happen as you can't please everyone at once as Vitaly mentions.

@Vitaly: I appreciate you taking the time to join in the discussion. It's always great to know the people I am writing about understand where I am coming from. As I mentioned before it can definitely be hard when you become so big that your audience is split between remaining true and sticking to what you are doing. I'm glad to hear you are aiming for a better mix of articles and I think you are well on your way to accomplishing that.

For many writers the temptation to see large amount of numbers for their articles may be too much for them not to write a list, but what we have to understand is that opinion is just as valued as lists are if you present it properly. I hope that this entry is a good example of that. People do want to read opinions as long as they aren't just one-offs spouting non-sense.

@Kyle: First off you have always had one of my most favorite designs of all time. I know others might just see it being minimal, but how it gets the job done is nothing short of amazing to me. Mixed that with your content and you almost have site perfection. /lovefest

Agreed that some of the bigger people will have to educate the community on what design is and the great ways they can go about discussing it. If you are new to the field you can't blame them for jumping right in and trying to make a name for themselves by making lists because everyone else is doing it and it seems to be working well for them. Hopefully, this site serves as a springboard to other people jumping in the deep end and writing about what is on their minds.

@Josh: Tyme and I were talking about this before, if you write a list why not justify why every item is on that list. Sure that means if you are making a list of 100 items, then you will have to justify 100 items, but so what. Then it becomes more than just a list, it turns into a valuable resource that people will return to time and time again.
 

Andrea Austoni (Cute Little Factory)

11.25.09
permalink
While I understand the points you made I think it's unfair to pick on successful (and rich) websites.
I know from personal experience that Smashing Magazine takes big chances with articles. They published a rather odd piece of mine (which I won't plug) already and I wrote another one for them which deals with art.
They cater to a large audience and have employees and contributors to pay therefore they need to think about self-preservation, too.

What is killing design, in my view, is stock websites: illustrations that take hours to create sell for $4. Now logos will receive the same treatment: death by stock. This is ruining our profession more than anything else.

Smashing Magazine is not evil and Jason Santa Maria is not a god. They just have a different focus.

What the community should do is MAKE design instead of talking about it.
Back to work now.
 

Andrea Austoni (Cute Little Factory)

11.25.09
permalink
I forgot to add that tutorials are not the same as lists.
I create many and they take skill, dedication and many hours to put together. Tutorials are among the little educational content left in the design community so please don't liken them to lists.
 

JohnONolan

11.25.09
permalink
Man, I was right with you up to the point where you claimed to have invented the CSS Gallery and be responsible for the entire movement.

Totally lost all interest/respect for the rest of the article after that.
 

Scrivs

11.25.09
permalink
@Andrea: If you checkout my previous comment you can see that I make sure to give Smashing props for being the springboard to many people. Very few sites can say they have done that.

I'm definitely aware of why they post much of the stuff they do, it's because it brings them the traffic and it is what much of their audience expects. Its hard for me to say I would be any different if I was in their position. I'm hoping that Drawar can stand side-by-side with them in enriching our great community.

@John: If taking credit for a movement that has spawned 200+ generic sites that benefit nobody is how you lose someone's respect then I don't blame you. I would love to give you the credit instead. I'm not sure how else I could put it though. The CSSVault was the first CSS gallery out there, there were no others. That's not bragging or boasting, that's just me going over the timeline of how things happened.
 

Scrivs

11.25.09
permalink
@Andrea: Agreed that GOOD tutorials are not like lists, but if you look around you will see many "tutorials" are nothing more than lists to other tutorials. The Tut+ Network does a fantastic job of putting out kick ass tutorials that are easy to read and helpful.
 

cp.brown

11.25.09
permalink
As someone very new to the design community it is wonderful to see that there are people out there dedicated to intellectual discussion on design. Lists can be useful but I don't see them pushing the growth of designers as much as commentary and ideas.

For the sake of everyone who hopes to grow as a designer I hope more sites follow your lead, and I look forward to more articles from drawar.com
 

Robert Dawson

11.25.09
permalink
Now someone will write an article that lists 50 new theories on design.

I currently value Smashing Magazine as a passive observer for inspiration. If I happen to learn something, great. More important for me, as someone who has been in web development for a while, is trend watching. And Smashing Magazine excels at it.

But I would actually enjoy reading 50 different design theories.
 

Scrivs

11.25.09
permalink
Thanks Robert, I was having a hard time coming up with what to write for next week. Indeed, Smashing Magazine does an excellent job of keeping track of design trends. Maybe they could have a custom section for that. Seems like a cool idea.
 

Andrea Austoni (Cute Little Factory)

11.25.09
permalink
@Scrivs You're right, that's why I am honored to be a frequent writer for the Tuts+ network and have turned down offers by websites made entirely out of ads and linkbait.
You just earned a new reader, by the way!
 

Scrivs

11.25.09
permalink
@Andrea: That is awesome you are a writer for them, feel free to shoot me some of your stuff or post it in the Community News section. I'm sure it will be helpful to many others out there.

Glad to have you as a reader, now I just have to worry about not disappointing you!
 

Tony Geer

11.25.09
permalink
Hey Scrivs, nice to have you back, I used to enjoy reading your older blogs.

However, I did find it hypocritical that you criticized galleries but you have own gallery and you criticized lists posts but have 3 of them in your news feed right now.

While I do agree that your gallery differs enough from the other galleries in that the images are much better as well as the other stuff you're working on, I think continuing to link to these lists doesn't help the situation that you talked about in this post at all.

We need to stop retweeting, linking and being so focused on trends if we're to get out of this rut and encourage more creative and independent thinking.
 

Scrivs

11.25.09
permalink
I can see why you would come to those points Tony, but over time if you continue to come back to Drawar you will begin to see how the Drawar Gallery differs from the rest. It will also be used as a tool for many of the discussions that you see here in the future. It is integrated into the Drawar community and hopefully I can make it so it becomes a great tool for others in the future.

If you have been following the discussion and even read the article you will see that I do think lists have a place in the community so I don't think no linking or retweeting them is going to solve anything. For that to happen the whole web design community would have to disappear from the web. Instead I think there should be more places (not just this one) that focus on the discussions around design so others have the motivation to talk about it themselves.
 

Tony Geer

11.25.09
permalink
Hey Scrivs, I certainly agree that your Gallery is right now better than most of those that I visit infrequently, and I'm looking forward to seeing what the future holds (I just subscribed to your RSS feed).

WRT to those links, I guess I'm just jaded by seeing so useless ones the really interesting ones sometimes get lost.
 

Scrivs

11.25.09
permalink
After so many years of nothing but lists I don't blame ya. As for the Gallery (and this site) I'm working my best to add new functionality daily to better the experience for all. For now you can save the sites to your dashboard for later viewing, which is why I created it in the first place. I got tired of forgetting a site/design and trying to find it later.

So yes, I created the gallery for my own selfish reasons. But isn't that the beauty of the web?
 

Tony Geer

11.25.09
permalink
"I got tired of forgetting a site/design and trying to find it later."

Heh, I know what you mean. Looking forward to using the gallery.
 

Haarball

11.25.09
permalink
Finally. Thank you.
 

@designium

11.26.09
permalink
@drawar very nice article... really enjoyed!
 

Mark Kelso

11.26.09
permalink
Hi,

Great article it really hits the nail on the head with how a lot of people our feeling, their is so much on the web at the moment and it is so hard to try and find interesting new articles that our meaningful and useful.

I hope these sites do listen to your points..

Also do you agree with lists for scripts like the best jquery plugins or PHP mailing lists?

Thanks Scrivs!
 

Curtiss

11.26.09
permalink
Nice article. I have only ever been a casual reader of Smashing Magazine. I can see what you're talking about, but Smashing does obviously have some value. For the most part, their content is easily scannable and digestable. You can pop onto a Smashing article, take a look at the items listed and choose one or two out of the ten or 15 things listed that might interest you.

As a developer and coder (not a designer), the frustration I have with Smashing is that there are so many instances in which the code they provide in their tutorials doesn't work. It seems that many times they will type out the code for their articles from memory rather than copying it from a tested and working source and pasting it into their articles. I find I spend almost as much time debugging the code I've copied from their articles as I would trying to come up with my own version of it.

Therefore, for the most part, I use Smashing as an inspiration for ideas and then find my own way to do it.

On a related note, Smashing's Twitter feed is actually extremely valuable. They post articles from all over the Web (including this one - that's how I found this post) that deal with design, development and more. The articles they link range from lists of simple vector icon packs to in-depth tutorials.

BTW - Welcome back.
 

Marco Jardim

11.26.09
permalink
I wouldn't be half as good of a professional, as I am today, were it not for the previous generation of design community websites.

Today's articles are mostly about the "How's" and not the "Why's".

Surely you can find an article with "20 ways to fix Internet Explorer bugs", but how many people of this new generation can understand why they occur and how to avoid them, rather than applying random hacks and fixes until the problem is solved?
 

Brad Colbow

11.26.09
permalink
Good to see Vitaly commenting here because he really has been working hard to move past publishing lists. I have a really hard time blaming Smashing Magazine. Sure they popularized lists but there is an economic model here. With services like Buysellads.com anyone can slap up a Wordpress theme, make a couple lists and make money.

Like any business models you can't last doing the same thing as everybody else, there are so many galleries and lists post blogs that they cancel each other out, they incestuous and redundant. It's to the point where a person can't make money or a reputation doing that kind of thing anymore. I don't think inspiration galleries/lists will ever completely die but I think we are at the tail end of their mass popularity.
 

Tyssen

11.26.09
permalink
Actually Scrivs, I think JohnONolan has a point because it can come down to a case of interpretation as to some of the galleries' intent.

Last year I created my own list of web design galleries (currently numbering 349; going to add Drawar right now ;) which shows that Styleboost, Plastic Pilots, New Web Pick, Wow Factor and Lookum were all launched before CSS Vault. None of them state explicitly now that they feature solely CSS-based sites, but then some have changed quite a lot over the years so it's a bit hard to say for certain that CSS Vault was in fact the first CSS-only gallery.

On the subject of Smashing Magazine, if this - "Have you ever left there feeling that you learned something?" - refers to reading the comments, then probably the answer would be no, because they're pretty much as you've summarised (although I try chime in if I think the article missed something or got something wrong), but if you're talking about the articles themselves, then I'd answer 'yes', I've probably learnt quite a few things from SM. It's just that the ratio of stuff learned to articles read (or quickly scanned through) would probably be a lot less than on something like ALA. ;)
 

Scrivs

11.26.09
permalink
@Mark Kelso: re:Lists Again there is a time and place for them. I don't think a list is something that can be hacked on to any type of content though. However, for something like PHP mailing lists top 5 then a list works perfectly. It would be great if you could provide the reasoning though as to why something makes the lists. 50% of the lists entries out there now would be 100% better if there was some reasoning behind the selections.

Hell, instead of the 50 top somethings, why not just do the top 5/10 so you can explain yourself?

@Curtiss: Glad to be back and yes, Smashing's Twitter is a great resource for some excellent stuff on the web.

@Marco: You have taught me some things along the way young one.
 

Scrivs

11.26.09
permalink
@Tyssen: Those are some of the sites I was referring to in my article about their being web galleries around before CSSVault. However, they featured sites that were based on CSS, tables and sometimes Flash at the time of launch. However, lets not get into semantics about who started what. How about we just stick with me being one of the first 100 out of 300 ;-) Thanks for adding Drawar to your list.

With regards to comments, one can only wish that all discussions happen as well as this one on this site in the future.
 

Zach Dunn

11.26.09
permalink
As much as I wish our latest post hadn't landed in your preface, I largely agree with the overall point. My own perspective breaks down to three points:

1. List posts should never be the backbone of a blog's content. Community link sites (e.g. CSSGlobe) are obviously a different story.

2. Discussion and genuine food-for-thought are essential to longstanding quality blogs. You can't grow with just links.

2. I think there is a distinct difference between list posts and legitimate showcases. I choose my words carefully, because there is a thin line between the two. List for list sake serves no-one, but in context (and proper preface) it can act as examples for discussion. It's very different to post "56 Examples of Sewing Websites" versus "How to Make a Successful Sewing Website", where the second includes a section of examples.

In defense of our trend post, I'd like to share my logic for creating a discussion on spa themed websites. Does an article about spa websites seem a little non-sequitur by title? Absolutely -- very few designers I know strike me as the spa type. But web designers still have to make sites for the obscure spa, lumberjacks, and skydiving guilds of the world. As we like to say on Build Internet, inspiration comes in weird places. We find that a topic doesn't always have to be directly relevant in order to have an impact.

In fairness I don't think our post falls under the same category of lists that you discuss here. Sam and I run our blog with discussion topics in mind. Do we occasionally "take a day off" and put up a showcase post? Without regret -- it's refreshing. We know the type of blog we run, and we also know that long time readers know what we're about. In the instance of the spa post, you'll find that the (intended) focus was on the trend preface. The showcase of 15 spa pages afterward are secondary. Hopefully the choice of title reinforces this intention.

If I've missed a point of this post please let me know, because I agree with the need for substance among blogs. I'd just be a little slower to categorize any grouping of specific niche topics (like Spa trends) into the same "copycat list" zone. Thanks for a thought provoking article Scrivs.
 

Wayne Dahlberg

11.26.09
permalink
Thank you so much for posting this article. This is no lie, I was putting together my thoughts on this very subject for a post on my humble (less than 20 subscribers) blog. I'm so happy it has the chance for more exposure. I refer to it as the 'shotgun' approach to online publication.

True SM was valuable to me back in the day when I was a noob, feasting on their every post daily. I can't help but feel their new SM network is just a chance to neutralize the competition (page hits-wise) under the guise of "motivate designers and developers to put more original high quality content out there."

Smashing still has its place for those learning the craft(s), and those of us needing refresher courses, and those of us with memory loss. I have grown tired of looking at my RSS feed category 'Web Design' and all I see are numbers and adjectives for the first few words of each feed post.

Again, thank you for this post, it was a very refreshing and welcomed and needed perspective to the design and coding community.

It is harder to find original and thought provoking inspiration these days. List posts and 'Best of...' articles are glazed over (by me and many others) like banner ads. The most valuable part of this post may yet be the open and honest discussion and commentary, followed by a subtle (if any) change on the part of the offending sites.
 

Aleks

11.26.09
permalink
Great post! Keep up the good work!

...Nah, really!

But that is what i like about coding blogs. There is no stupid "10 ways to be a dumbass programmer" because you really need to tell the people, how to code stuff.

Anyways! Today i saw this site the first time and i can tell you, you will become famous with this article. Many people will tweet about it.
 

Scrivs

11.26.09
permalink
@Zach: Thanks for stepping into the discussion. I didn't want to sound too down on you guys and that is why I put the sidebar box up because you do put up some wonderful content and I didn't want that to get lost in all of this. At the time I was writing this article, your entry popped up and it just seemed too appropriate not to use. Please do keep up the great writing though as I thoroughly enjoy your site.

@Wayne: It has always been harder to be original and thought-provoking, but if you take the time to try and do it, the rewards are great. Not only for what happens with people linking to you and recognizing you, but also what happens to you personally. You being to see the world in a new way.

@Aleks: Haha, thanks. I don't think one article will make me famous, maybe known for a couple of seconds, but hopefully I can continue to produce the content that a number of people enjoy.
 

Marko

11.26.09
permalink
This article just made my day! Thank you for that. I'm an instant follower.

I completly agree with you. I used to bitch about a similar situation in the offline world... about design books. I would get into a bookshop to check out if there's something new and interesting, and 95% of the stuff would be... well... the print equivalent of lists posted on a blog. This digest, that digest, 100 hot-tips, best logos, best envelopes, best brochures, blah-blah... 99% eyecandy, 1% explanations, insights, etc. Just style, no process. I think it's ok for inspiration, and to get yourself udated on what's going on around you, or for getting a bit out of the comfort zone in which you've been in for too long, but it can also easily steer you off the road you maybe had imagined, for a project. If you have no mental discipline, looking too much into that stuff can be like plague...
 

Dan Denney

11.26.09
permalink
You have some wonderful points, but unfortunately they're wrapped up in a misguided post. The title really should have been "Copycats Kill the Design Community", but we all know that would not have had the same appeal.

You and Smashing made major contributions in establishing a design community. Once a community is established, the members define its culture. Unfortunately, our community rewards duplication without innovation, as you said. (I'm guilty of it myself, by RTing links to sites that simply list a link to a different site's content.)

As members of the design community, we are responsible for shaping its culture. To correct our current culture, we have to stop rewarding bad behavior.

What would happen if we stopped visiting copycat sites and stopped sharing their content with social networking tools?

What would happen if community members spent a week creating an article for Smashing instead of launching another gallery site?

What if there was one site for inspiration and trends, one gallery site for css and one site for theory discussion that we all contributed to?

I believe that if we all focus on not rewarding copycat behavior, we will change the culture and the economics of the design community.
 

Scrivs

11.26.09
permalink
Well said Dan. I use Smashing Mag and myself in the title because the copycats had to get their "ideas" from somewhere. However, when you start to create something one of your initial thoughts isn't "I hope others copy what I do and start to annoy everyone", you just want to do what is on your mind.

Although in a perfect world everyone would do as you have suggested, but I don't think it is needed. We just need more people to step up with the content and discussions so that there is a nice balance between discussions and resources. We have probably reached a saturation point though with regards to the copycat sites as the community can only take so many. Eventually people stop going to the new ones and stick with the more established ones causing the rest to fall off.


As members of the design community, we are responsible for shaping its culture.




You speak nothing but the truth here.
 

David Korona

11.26.09
permalink
It's funny how someone can think one way and yet fall right into the opposite. The ‘listmania’ has been something I've been personally against and swore to never take part in when blogging on my own. Yet after looking over future projects, and reading this article as a bit of a wakeup call, I too found I would have just added that much more to the mess. I have only written a few articles, however, I always ensure they are well written and thought provoking. I plan on writing an entry on the ideas you have presented here. The community needs to heal its heart.

I remember when Abduzeebo was still a fresh site. The reason I liked visiting was because the owner had some of the best Photoshop light effect tutorials at the time and I thought the methods were interesting. I had the site in my RSS for months but slowly, overtime it just started becoming more and more lists. I had to unsubscribe. What pains me even more about the site is not only are there a ton of ads but there is a DONATION button! That gives me a huge impression that it’s only about the money; apparently the 10 grand a month isn't cutting it for them.

Your point on Design Galleries is dead on. There are so many of them that are exactly the same as the last. The attempts to be original are so weak, for instance Wordpress only galleries or Twitter background galleries. I planned on releasing my own Gallery but unless it's something truly innovative and helpful, it's not going public; the mess is big enough as it is.

Lastly, I'd like to say that it's nice to see you take the time to actually respond to those who comment on your article. I look forward to reading more of what you have to say.
 

Scrivs

11.26.09
permalink

Lastly, I'd like to say that it's nice to see you take the time to actually respond to those who comment on your article


I wouldn't be doing too good of a job of telling the community we need better discussions if I don't join in on them myself.

When you do write your entry make sure to shoot it my way, would love to see it.
 

heath

11.26.09
permalink
via #Dan Denney:

"...our community rewards duplication without innovation..."

and

"...What would happen if community members spent a week creating an article for Smashing instead of launching another gallery site?..."

- - -

A community can't be self-sustaining unless it has a revenue feed, over the long haul. Every unoriginal article has a commercial motive, whether it's obvious to the designer-author or not. Is there enough revenue flowing into the community to reward original behavior? What do designers get out of it when they craft an original article? Do they get paid by Smashing Mag and other sites that are successfully monetized?

I see an evolution of a marketplace going on.
 

Lea

11.26.09
permalink
I agree with your sentiment here, Scrivs, but a few things come to mind:

Higher quality articles are always hard to find because a) experts with "free time" to write articles are hard to find, b) some experts can't write worth shit, and so: c) experts who can convey their information well through writing are few. But what's easy? Lists!

Next, we have web professionals who moonlight as editors, as opposed to those who are Editors first, web professionals second. Half the job of an editor is rejecting and cutting crap out and perhaps all community managers need a more discriminating eye.

Partial solution? Make it real lucrative for an expert (who knows how to write) to contribute, so then it's treated like a project and they'll make time for it. However, it's a chicken and egg situation. List-type sites are popular for ad revenue. I think there's room for both, really, but perhaps there needs to be a bigger push for us designers to step up and write great content, too. Publishers can only do so much if no one is sending them good material.
 

Scrivs

11.26.09
permalink
You're right in that the people we would like to see right probably don't find any incentive in doing it. So are you proposing that you fund me with a million dollars and I will go out and make those quality articles happen from the experts? I like that deal.

If that can't happen I'll take more articles from you.
 

Lilian

11.27.09
permalink
You have articulated my sentiments exactly. I do not like list posts (not limited to just SM) because I feel they create stagnation within design.

If list posts showcased and critiqued an exclusive range of things, then perhaps they would not be so counter-productive. But their factual format, lack of depth/clarity and repetitiveness create shallow trends based on the ephemeral qualities of certain aesthetics. It gives the impression that these decisions cannot be disputed. Instead it encourages less risk-taking (after all, trend x, y and z works so well, so why re-invent the wheel?), when risk-taking is the true source of truly unique design.

Personally, I cannot separate designing from thinking — I need to do both in equal measure in order to create.
 

Amrinder

11.27.09
permalink
Very well said.

These community sites along with providing resources and inspiration (as they call it) are also misguiding some young designers. If not many, few of the beginners get stuck with such blogs and don't try to work on details of design.

I'm launching a site with handpicked articles and blog posts which will help designers to get the best of web and these design blogs. Lets see if that can help designers to get better content.
 

Michael

11.27.09
permalink
"Top 10 beautifully succulent amateur drivel possibly found anywhere."

Eff off, stop wasting space in my intertubes.
 

Darren Taylor

11.27.09
permalink
I actually think SM could easily help the situation here. By moderating their comments and only allowing the constructive ones to appear they'd give creditability to their site and have a site that's more in keeping with ALA. SM really stooped to new depths when Noupe, which they recently acquired, posted http://www.noupe.com/showcases/the-ultimate-ugly-showcase-of-current-government-websites.html. This was possibly the biggest load of drivel I've ever seen obviously put together by a complete imbecile.
I look forward to reading more of your posts.
 

Eugen R.

11.27.09
permalink
While those list articles sometimes provide useful information/links, they are very often copied over from another blogs and there is definitely too many of them. It is absolutely true what you said. Also, I shudder when I read average comments on SM's and other famous blogs' posts. There is no opinion stating, no discussion, just simple 'Great article' and definitely a linked name. Eeeh.

I'm glad this article has already so many comments, I hope it'll get really popular and will change something.
 

PrintRadar

11.27.09
permalink
Dear, well all of you who are now preaching and acting like "oh thank God, someone finally said it.. And oh I so hate that 16 pieces of this, 101 amazing images of that", where have you been hiding so far? And excuse me, but who is pulling your hand and saying: "You have to visit this 101 best images of the day article!"? If there is such a case, I am sorry in advance, and you should talk to the police. Like almost everything else, it's a matter of choice. I can bet that each and everyone of you would eat their shoes if that was the condition to have a website just as popular as Smashing Magazine, or Abduzeedo, or any other similar website with millions of readers daily. So, once again, no one is forcing you to read anything on such blogs who regularly publish lists. No one is stopping you to do quality talk with other designers. No one is stopping designers to publish their work in what ever form they like.
I don't want to make this much longer here, but will make a longer post on it. Thank you.
 

Ehab

11.28.09
permalink
I knew there was something wrong with this world.
 

Vitaly Friedman (editor-in-chief of Smashing Magazine)

11.28.09
permalink
@all: everybody who blames us for being focused on linkbaiting and lists, should please visit Smashing Magazine and take a look at the various kinds of articles in the magazine - in particularly, the ones published over the last 6 months. Our goal is to have a nice balance between useful round-ups, inspirational showcases and high quality practical articles. We also welcome all professional designers and developers to contribute to the magazine. We could certainly use some help and we are paying well for professional articles that spark a discussion in the design community. We are serving the design community and we are certainly not killers ;-)

@Amber Weinberg: We are doing our best to deliver detailed, useful, extensive high quality content, yet spice it up with galleries and showcases to make the content interesting for the wide variety of our audience. Please take a closer look at our archives, I am sure you'll find many detailed, useful and extensive articles.

@Andrea Austoni, Robert Dawson, Curtiss, Brad Colbow, Dan Denney: thank you for your support!

@Mark Kelso: yes, we are listening! Of course, it is extremely important for us to know what the community needs to get a better idea of how we can (or should) improve our magazine to meet its needs.

@Kyle Meyer: that's not necessarily true. Our extensive case studies required a lot of time and money - and it would be just impossible to conduct them without advertising and "business in the equation". Besides, we are paying up to $450 per article and we always welcome professional designers and developers to write for us. However, finding good authors is very difficult; not only we, but also other design magazines have the same problem. But if you know someone who could write for us - please send us a mail or just tweet us!

@Wayne Dahlberg: thank you for your opinion. Again, if you take a look at our posts, you'll find a mix of advanced articles for professionals (Advanced Power Tips For WordPress Template Developers) and basic articles (Designing CSS Buttons: Techniques and Resources) as well as useful tools, freebies etc. So in my opinion it is incorrect to say that all SM's articles are basic, plain and are useful only for beginners.

@Tranquera: I think that most designers are looking for a nice mix of various kinds of articles and posts. And that's exactly what we are offering in the Smashing Magazine. Since it has become very easy to earn money with blogging and lists work well in social media, this format is often misused for financial purposes. Personally, I don't think that it's our fault, we didn't invent the lists, we moved them to the next, more usable level. And over the last years we've worked hard to help the design community, not to kill it. And we are confident that we've done at least something right.

@Eugen R.: you are absolutely right. This is the reason why we removed the "Your URL" input field in the comments area - it was used way too often for spamming and link dropping. We will try to moderate comments to our posts more strictly.

Thank you for all the great comments, we really appreciate it. And we are listening to you. We'll see what we can do.
 

iisbum

11.28.09
permalink
My biggest problem with the lists posts lately is that they are getting so loooooooooong.

One of the good things about they lists post was that they highlighted quality in a particular niche, or something that used a specific design style or element.

Now the list post have 100's of entries in them don't appear to be selective at all, it's just a collection of stuff that someone found via Google or similar, with little or no thought put into why they should be in the list.

I agree with Scriv would be better to have a shorter list with reasoning as to why it was included in the list rather than a longer list, and to Smashing Magazines credit I have see a few of these type of posts, and would welcome more.
 

Scott Schiller

11.28.09
permalink
"Great post, wonderful informations!" [sic]

Hey Scrivs, it's been many years - I recall being linked from CSSVault myself, back in 2004. I think your claim of "first" is pretty big, but it goes without saying that you were certainly one of the earliest, and original, entries of the endless copycat CSS galleries to come.

SmashingMagazine is well-designed and easy to read, as one would expect of a magazine; in the real print world, magazines have used lists for eons to market their covers - for example, how many "1000 Windows 95 Shortcuts" articles do you recall from PC World et al? In what may be the ultimate example of a "top 10" list, consider "rules to life your life by". (Look up George Carlin on the 10 Commandments for an adult-humoured rant on this.)

The comments on SM, perhaps inexplicably, have endless "me-too" replies from countless people. "Great post; awesome list! Wonderful informations, thanks!" - I am at a loss to explain these, other than perhaps that people have nothing original to say and simply want a chance to be heard and have their name/site linked.

SM has the occasional great article with detailed information and technical thought, eg., on PNG/GIF image optimization techniques. The challenge with a blog is writing unique, original and good content which is thought-out, detailed and tells a story. In my opinion, lists are a great way to make a lot of content up without really having to tie it all together.

Lists also have little "replay value", become stale and require maintenance or updates. This makes them easy targets for one-off reading, but doesn't really have any long-term value.

On the other hand, someone out there has a "top 25 rounded corners techniques" list-style article, but to keep it relevant they have updated it as new techniques come out (and there are plenty.) That is infinitely more useful than an old list which may still show up high in search results because it was linked some time ago and never updated.

Finally, as pointed out by some commenters above, SM is apparently a business - which also, it's said, has employees, has "acquired" other sites (eg. noupe.com), and so on. The fact it's a business arguably has an effect on the motivation and the process behind writing content, given money and multiple parties are involved.

It bothers me a little bit that people are out "monetizing" HTML/CSS/JS, things I have loved and worked on since the mid-90's as a web developer (front-end engineer) - but at the same time it's also rather wonderful that I and others have jobs doing what we love. Because I have a job, my "blog" doesn't have any ads on it. There is also room for business in this, and SM have arguably been successful at showing that there is interest in web design - even if it is "10 ways to [verb] your [noun]". ;)
 

Marco Silva

11.29.09
permalink
I don't have much to add to the previous comments. But even so I would like to express my support for your post.

Well said.
 

Craig Baldwin

11.29.09
permalink
I really enjoyed reading this article though looking over my RSS reader now I realise just how many list posts that are out there. It's depressing really now I think about it.

Thanks for the great post and good luck with future entries.
 

Yael Miller

11.29.09
permalink
Very interesting read. I've been noticing the list trend (I call them 'roundups').

My main complaint against lists is that many are featuring sub-quality selections, some don't provide credits by name, others don't give source credits and some are obvious rips of other lists.

Lists are lucrative. Let's face it. I think they have their place. But, more emphasis has to go into crafting a high-quality list with proper design credits and source links where appropriate.

I can' tell you how many '100 most creative logos' kind of lists I've seen with amateur, mediocre logos in them. It would have been way better to make the list 30 logos and select truly noteworthy logo marks.

On another point I see discussed above, is writing articles works only if you have the time and are not saturated with paid client work. Even if the article is paid for, to write one properly you need enough time and the pay has to be worthwhile in comparison to what you make working for clients.

Although $450 is not a shabby sum, it would not entice expert-level designers enough to want to put several hours into a solid, well-researched piece. Even detailed tutorials don't pay more than $300. So, there is a ceiling to the quality one could attain for that rate.

Many good points here. Glad to discover your blog!
 

Scott McCracken

11.30.09
permalink
This increased dependence on lists caters to the collective ADD of our community by allowing quick scanning of key points. For many it's also a transparent SEO tactic to create lots of outbound links in the hope of collecting a few inbound ones.

It's dirty, but it unfortunately works.

All I know is 5 years ago I looked forward to opening my feed reader in the morning because I knew I would come across a handful of great ideas, stories and inspirational posts. Hopefully we, as a community of web designers / developers, can find a way to get back to innovating rather then regurgitating existing content.
 

Eric Weiand

11.30.09
permalink
The community killed the community (or maybe we just get what we give)

I know this has been pointed out earlier in the comments but I just want to restate and possibly expand on the point. The real problem with the design community is the community itself. No one reads, comments or discusses well thought out, discussion oriented posts unless they are controversial and/or written by someone like a pioneer of the CSS gallery. This post is a prime example of both of those requirements and suddenly everyone is in agreement.

Where are all of these commenters when the guy pounding out discussion worthy threads gives up and gives the larger community what they want? Why does it take controversy, call-outs and popularity to get you to comment? Honestly, I have to assume that you're all fakes. The majority (not all) of the agreement comments here are nothing more than the "Great Post!" comments from SM only slightly more bloated with self-importance and eagerness to please a well known author.

Most people don't like talking to walls or shouting out into the ether. People write blogs because they want people to read them, they want people to comment and they think they have something to offer. Many blogs that I've read and commented on started out with well written, thoughtful commentary but quickly decided that it wasn't what the community wanted because all of these people begging for better content never bothered to show up.
 

Damon Bauer

12.04.09
permalink
Great article... I am very inspired to be a bit more out of the box and try new things.

Although SM is a good place to find resources, it's hard to see some of the posts. I guess I can't criticize or anything, as I've not done much to help the design world, yet. They have directed me to a few good sites, resources and new ideas. I don't read as much as I used to, but hopefully they are moving in the right direction as Vitaly has been explaining.

Thanks for the great article and here's to inspiring more thought provoking posts!!
 
 

Comments are closed.

Instead of having people drop in weeks after an entry is posted and leaving comments that won't get responded to, Drawar closes comments after two weeks so that the community can focus on more recent discussions. If there is a point you really want to make and feel that it can generate some great discussion, drop in the forums and start a topic.

More Drawar

 

All Drawar articles